Hello Michiel,
MV>>> Of course. But it was not always like that after the end of the
MV>>> cold war. Remember Glasnost and Perestroyka? Yes, that is gone
MV>>> now, but in
DP>> Glasnost and Perestroyka was a Soviet thing, in late 80s. It was long
DP>> before Putin.
MvdV> Indeed, long before Putin. But it didn't have to go when the Sovjet Union
MvdV> was dissolved. If you had voted against Putin when you still could,
MvdV> Glasnost and Perestroyka might still be here.
There are several flaws in your analysis. Gorbachev's idea was to
spin off the republics that had been held together by the USSR. Then
rebuild what was left to be a dynamic state - with help from the USA.
Kind of a Marshall Plan for the USSR. With Eastern Europe as a gift.
The problem with that approach was Bush41 chose not to go along.
The USSR was dissolved, Yeltsen took over as president of Russia,
and Ukraine was a free and independent country. Nobody argued about
it, all was well. Even Putin agreed.
And now look where we are.
DP>> However, the country was ill-prepared for such a significant shift.
MvdV> No country is ever prepared well for such a shift. Yet other countries
MvdV> survived. France survived the revolution. The USA survived after they
MvdV> kicked the Brittish out and they survived a civil war. Italy survived the
MvdV> fall of the Roman Empire and The Netherlands survived when they declared
MvdV> independance from the Spanish Kingdom.
Had it not been for the Marshall Plan several countries in Europe
would not have survived. Had it not been for the Soviet counterpart,
many other countries in Europe would not have survived.
Face the facts. The USA built Western Europe. The USSR built
Eastern Europe. And who is building Asia? Will it be Japan? The
people of the Rising Sun are too old, and getting older. Will
it be China? Their population is also in decline, as not enough
babies are being born to keep up.
All of the countries in Europe have declining populations.
Within two or three decades, the majority of people in many
countries in Europe will have been born elsewhere.
DP>> We lacked people with good economic education
MvdV> I don't believe that. Russia has produced famous artist and scientists.
MvdV> Don't try to tell me that there were no economists.
Russia's best and brightest have left for greener shores.
China knows better than to follow Russia's lead.
However, most countries in Europe have a problem they
have yet to solve - how to stop immigrants from swamping
their population.
DP>> and as a result, the attempt to transition from socialism to a system
DP>> akin to that of the Netherlands failed. Many of those experts in
DP>> government saw the transformation as an opportunity for personal gain,
DP>> and the Soviet Nomenklatura maintained their hold on power.
MvdV> That a small elite sees a transition as an opportunity for personal gain
MvdV> happens everywhere. What do you think happened during the so called
"Golden
MvdV> Age" in The Netherlands. BTW, during that "Golden Age" The Netherlands
had
MvdV> very good relations with Russia.
That was then. This is now. FDR and Stalin were friends. Even though
they had far different philosophies or ideologies, they were able to
get along and prosecute the war in the Atlantic and in the Pacific.
MvdV> [,, ]
MV>>> It was not always like that...
DP>> In the 90s, I was too busy working to get involved in politics. I
DP>> started working at the age of 13 because my parents couldn't afford
MvdV> to
DP>> buy me a modem or pay for phone calls, which were quite expensive and
DP>> charged by the minute.
MvdV> When I was 13, I could not buy a modem because modems didn't exist in
1959.
MvdV> I already had a modem before Fidonet existed. I didn't buy it, I put it
MvdV> together myself. IIRC that was around 1978.
I still have my morse code key. but nothing left to hook it up to.
DP>> I've started to go the protests only in 2006, but it was too late.
MvdV> This wasn't meant as a personal attack. By "you" I meant the plural, the
MvdV> people who didn't vote against Putin when they still could.
Yeltsen quit, but not before giving Putin the job of prime minister.
He later called it the biggest mistake of his life.
DP>>>> Fidonet was different because it was a democracy :)
MV>>> Fidonet is not and never was a democracy.
DP>> In Russia, we had Fidonet as a great example of democracy. Many of my
DP>> friends still talk about democracy as something from the Fidonet era!
DP>> (I'm not joking).
MvdV> Ha, so there is where it went wrong. You thought Fidonet was a
democracy...
MvdV> That explains a lot... ;-)
A benevolent dictatorship. For those who like me.
A malevolent dictatorship. For those who don't.
DP>> Before Fidonet, they had no experience with real elections, or
DP>> providing the infrastructure for elections or removing an elected
DP>> person from "office".
MvdV> Not much different from The Netherlands when The King was the ultimate
MvdV> ruler..
Can there ever be a King? In the truest sense of the word?
A King must rule by decree, without question from anyone.
Otherwise that King is a fiction, as noted by Alice in her
depiction of the Red Queen.
DP>>>> Russia is always providing very good examples of how not to do
DP>>>> things. The previous one was communism, now it's time for a new
DP>>>> one :)
MV>>> Not "always". 200 years ago Russia was a country not much
MV>>> different from the rest of Europe.
DP>> In reality, it was quite different. We had actual slavery in place.
DP>> The culture may have been the same but it was a culture of the elite.
DP>> The average Russian lived like an African slave with no rights, in
MvdV> his
DP>> own country.
MvdV> Not much different from how it was in The Netherlands 200 years ago.
Black Peter is still around at Christmas time.
MvdV> [..]
DP>> Interestingly, I now live in London (for the past 1.5 years, since
MvdV> the
DP>> war started),
MvdV> So you left the country in the hands of the Putin supporters...
As did many in Venezuela leaving their friends in the hands
of Madura supporters.
DP>> and there's a pub here where Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin used to drink
DP>> together.
MvdV> "used to drink together" That sounds like all three were regulars there
and
MvdV> met once a week or so. Nice story that if a wear a pub owner would also
try
MvdV> to get around in order to lure customers.
At least Germany had sense enough to deport Lenin back to Russia.
For Life,
Lee
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